I've been trying to build up potential club members and have had some success. I had been running pickup games for friends and acquaintances (basically anyone who would ask) and allow them to invite whoever. These open games have been painful (either dull or awkward), but for roughly every one of them with a group of 6 or more, I was able to meet 1 or 2 real potential players. It's these players I approach and ask if they'd like to be a part of the VIP game. Thankfully, the pickup games rarely survive 2 sessions post-character creation. Just long enough for the good ones to understand that there is something here that they are being kept from by poor sportsmen.
The part that I think is hard to replicate about this, is that I have to approach these games as if they're not more-or-less doomed to fail. I imagine some people would struggle with not losing their temper or feeling hurt by the majority's disinterest. But keeping it together is important, because the people I want for my game are watching and if I get petty or pretentious, even if I'm justified, they're going to check out. So far, the VIP invites went to people who were:
1) showed interest in the text of the rules
2) enthusiastic about playing
3) frustrated by their fellows
Number 3 was especially important, because they end up being confronted with others being frustrated and rude holding back the start of the game and immediately understand why my solution is to just cherry pick the best.
Yeah, it definitely is a process to find players that stick with it and are quality players. That's another thing that we can learn from intramural sports and social clubs though. It's okay to have a bit of a tryout or trial process to make sure the perspective player clicks.
Yeah man, no problem! It’s a tough way to build a group - I’ve been doing this long enough to recognize the quirks and traits of people who are not a good fit, but har to ignore my instincts in order to get good prospects on board.
I can say it worked out fairly quickly, but not painlessly.
Totally agree. I've introduced newbies to this rough style and they just get it. Sometimes they are not that into the faction stuff but, that is kinda self selecting. To be charitable, the conventional game is not great in comparison.
As an aside how do you run plan to run patron play for this game? Always-On or Play-By-Post/Wargame turns?
Been doing the same. It can get a bit overwhelming to adjudicate things when more than 1 or 2 people are highly invested. If you come up to any new solutions to that, let me know.
It took me awhile to come around to this point because I spent most of my formative years as a "Proud Nerd." The reality of the situation is that's just self-identifying as a mindless consumer of the pop culture industry.
I try to think of the hobby as a pretense, hoping that relationships with other players become more central and leaning on the hobby as a reason to be together fades
I’ve been passionate about tabletop gaming for 24 years. Sadly, many of these players were the reason why I spent years without throwing a single dice roll or stopped playing Magic at game stores (thank god for Arena).
These days I mostly solo game and occasionally GM one-shots with friends. At this point, I’d rather invite complete noobies to my table if I know they can play as a team and show proper sportsmanship. If you really want to get to know somebody, play a game with them.
That being said, playing with somebody who bases their entire self-worth on how well they do is exhausting.
Nice points. I remember meeting my first Trekkie. I thought, since I liked science fiction, we'd have something in common. No. He didn't give a fig for science fiction. He was just obsessed with Trek. He didn't read anything outside of Trek novels. He didn't watch anything other than Trek. Totally bizarre to me to be so narrowly focused. He was pig-ignorant about anything else, yet saw his Trek OCD as an accomplishment.
I love this. My #1 rule at my table is always that life comes before the game. I also am always try and find an alternate story path for a player that can't make it this week. I agree that this club style play works so well and more people need to think that way. My players all have kids so life and family is always more important then a TTRPG.
You didn't scare the normies because normies would have no idea what you're talking about. Whether or not this style of play is the right one or the only one, it's currently limited to a small group of highly online people. Everyone already knows about rules lawyers, power gamers, micromanaging GMs, railroading, etc. and that it's a social game. The general advice is already to talk to those people, kick them out if necessary, or leave the group. This isn't revolutionary and it's not going to somehow genocide all the nerds you don't like.
Here's the thing; those highly online people have thriving communities mostly made up of normal people who aren't highly online. Harmony Ginger's Godstein is a perfect example of this. The normies don't need to read hours and hours of Bro tweets or watch Secrets or Blackmoor. They don't know anything about the game so all we need to do is just explain the concept to them. It's veteran players that need extensive deprogramming to get past bad habits. It will remove the nerds because they're already being filtered by it. They rage at the very idea without even trying to understand it. That's fine. They don't need to be at my table if they aren't willing to engage with this play style in good faith.
Playing the game normally as it's always been played (or at least played the vast majority of the time) isn't a bad habit. And yeah people are going to find it really grating if someone comes in to tell them that they're doing it WRONG and only this handful of bloggers knows how to really play. That's irritating behavior no matter what hobby it is.
I also don't know how you're defining veterans vs. normies vs. nerds. Most players right now are normies who play 5e and started somewhat recently. Their problem is that they want heavy railroading and they have high demands on the GM to accommodate all their "character arcs" and backstories. They think of roleplaying as more like improv comedy.
The veteran stereotypes you're talking about apply more to gamers from like 20-30 years ago, and like I said they've already been deprogrammed, if it's at all possible, by 20-30 years of blogs, videos, jokes, comics, and social stigmas during that time.
Whether or not these people are nerds is immaterial. It sounds like you're blending the meaning between the original definition of someone who is socially awkward and has certain interests, versus modern soyjaks/bugmen who only consume "nerdy" media, which I think falls under normies. You're probably going to get a mixed bag of both kinds as well as genuine people who have never played RPGs before, no matter what RPG thing you're doing.
I assure you that, as somebody who has participated in these kind of games, this style of play has ups and downs to it, and it's not universally better. I'm as irritated as anyone else by some of the tics of DND5e (and how they get baked into player expectations going forward) but you're not gonna fix it with sandbox campaigns.
I didn't reinvent West Marches and I had little to do with the formation of these ideas. Credit for that goes to Jeffro Johnson and his cohort who adapted their play style from the Braunstein and from close study of AD&D 1e. This isn't just a sandbox campaign but a living campaign with strict time-keeping and patron play. I would encourage you to read Jeffro's blog or watch the channel This is Dundermoose on YouTube.
Ok, we have a miscommunication. What I'm saying is that this is fundamentally West Marches with some modifications. The real time thing does not change the underlying structure. This is a player-driven sandbox campaign. Functionally, what's gonna happen with the "real time" stuff is that you're going to roll some dice and promote/demote/eliminate factions and figures. That's what that looks like to the players.
Also, and I'm not trying to be rude here, but you wrote this article with the premise that you're not a nerd anymore, and that response is just about the most excruciating "RPG Guy As Identity I Know More Than You" tone I've had directed at me in a while. Pure nerditry.
Anyway, good luck with it. I do not feel this is the radical normie-grabber that you think it is, but time will tell.
I've been trying to build up potential club members and have had some success. I had been running pickup games for friends and acquaintances (basically anyone who would ask) and allow them to invite whoever. These open games have been painful (either dull or awkward), but for roughly every one of them with a group of 6 or more, I was able to meet 1 or 2 real potential players. It's these players I approach and ask if they'd like to be a part of the VIP game. Thankfully, the pickup games rarely survive 2 sessions post-character creation. Just long enough for the good ones to understand that there is something here that they are being kept from by poor sportsmen.
The part that I think is hard to replicate about this, is that I have to approach these games as if they're not more-or-less doomed to fail. I imagine some people would struggle with not losing their temper or feeling hurt by the majority's disinterest. But keeping it together is important, because the people I want for my game are watching and if I get petty or pretentious, even if I'm justified, they're going to check out. So far, the VIP invites went to people who were:
1) showed interest in the text of the rules
2) enthusiastic about playing
3) frustrated by their fellows
Number 3 was especially important, because they end up being confronted with others being frustrated and rude holding back the start of the game and immediately understand why my solution is to just cherry pick the best.
Yeah, it definitely is a process to find players that stick with it and are quality players. That's another thing that we can learn from intramural sports and social clubs though. It's okay to have a bit of a tryout or trial process to make sure the perspective player clicks.
I like the "V.I.P. Game" idea. Thanks!
Yeah man, no problem! It’s a tough way to build a group - I’ve been doing this long enough to recognize the quirks and traits of people who are not a good fit, but har to ignore my instincts in order to get good prospects on board.
I can say it worked out fairly quickly, but not painlessly.
Totally agree. I've introduced newbies to this rough style and they just get it. Sometimes they are not that into the faction stuff but, that is kinda self selecting. To be charitable, the conventional game is not great in comparison.
As an aside how do you run plan to run patron play for this game? Always-On or Play-By-Post/Wargame turns?
Always-On. It's chaotic, but it gives me the gang warfare feeling that I'm trying to create in Nighthaven
Been doing the same. It can get a bit overwhelming to adjudicate things when more than 1 or 2 people are highly invested. If you come up to any new solutions to that, let me know.
I agree with your criticisms of consumerism
It took me awhile to come around to this point because I spent most of my formative years as a "Proud Nerd." The reality of the situation is that's just self-identifying as a mindless consumer of the pop culture industry.
I try to think of the hobby as a pretense, hoping that relationships with other players become more central and leaning on the hobby as a reason to be together fades
I’ve been passionate about tabletop gaming for 24 years. Sadly, many of these players were the reason why I spent years without throwing a single dice roll or stopped playing Magic at game stores (thank god for Arena).
These days I mostly solo game and occasionally GM one-shots with friends. At this point, I’d rather invite complete noobies to my table if I know they can play as a team and show proper sportsmanship. If you really want to get to know somebody, play a game with them.
That being said, playing with somebody who bases their entire self-worth on how well they do is exhausting.
Nice points. I remember meeting my first Trekkie. I thought, since I liked science fiction, we'd have something in common. No. He didn't give a fig for science fiction. He was just obsessed with Trek. He didn't read anything outside of Trek novels. He didn't watch anything other than Trek. Totally bizarre to me to be so narrowly focused. He was pig-ignorant about anything else, yet saw his Trek OCD as an accomplishment.
Excellent read. Best blog I’ve read all month.
I love this. My #1 rule at my table is always that life comes before the game. I also am always try and find an alternate story path for a player that can't make it this week. I agree that this club style play works so well and more people need to think that way. My players all have kids so life and family is always more important then a TTRPG.
You didn't scare the normies because normies would have no idea what you're talking about. Whether or not this style of play is the right one or the only one, it's currently limited to a small group of highly online people. Everyone already knows about rules lawyers, power gamers, micromanaging GMs, railroading, etc. and that it's a social game. The general advice is already to talk to those people, kick them out if necessary, or leave the group. This isn't revolutionary and it's not going to somehow genocide all the nerds you don't like.
Here's the thing; those highly online people have thriving communities mostly made up of normal people who aren't highly online. Harmony Ginger's Godstein is a perfect example of this. The normies don't need to read hours and hours of Bro tweets or watch Secrets or Blackmoor. They don't know anything about the game so all we need to do is just explain the concept to them. It's veteran players that need extensive deprogramming to get past bad habits. It will remove the nerds because they're already being filtered by it. They rage at the very idea without even trying to understand it. That's fine. They don't need to be at my table if they aren't willing to engage with this play style in good faith.
Playing the game normally as it's always been played (or at least played the vast majority of the time) isn't a bad habit. And yeah people are going to find it really grating if someone comes in to tell them that they're doing it WRONG and only this handful of bloggers knows how to really play. That's irritating behavior no matter what hobby it is.
I also don't know how you're defining veterans vs. normies vs. nerds. Most players right now are normies who play 5e and started somewhat recently. Their problem is that they want heavy railroading and they have high demands on the GM to accommodate all their "character arcs" and backstories. They think of roleplaying as more like improv comedy.
The veteran stereotypes you're talking about apply more to gamers from like 20-30 years ago, and like I said they've already been deprogrammed, if it's at all possible, by 20-30 years of blogs, videos, jokes, comics, and social stigmas during that time.
Whether or not these people are nerds is immaterial. It sounds like you're blending the meaning between the original definition of someone who is socially awkward and has certain interests, versus modern soyjaks/bugmen who only consume "nerdy" media, which I think falls under normies. You're probably going to get a mixed bag of both kinds as well as genuine people who have never played RPGs before, no matter what RPG thing you're doing.
You've reinvented West Marches style play (https://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/78/grand-experiments-west-marches/) with some small modifications and have decided that it's the superior way.
I assure you that, as somebody who has participated in these kind of games, this style of play has ups and downs to it, and it's not universally better. I'm as irritated as anyone else by some of the tics of DND5e (and how they get baked into player expectations going forward) but you're not gonna fix it with sandbox campaigns.
I didn't reinvent West Marches and I had little to do with the formation of these ideas. Credit for that goes to Jeffro Johnson and his cohort who adapted their play style from the Braunstein and from close study of AD&D 1e. This isn't just a sandbox campaign but a living campaign with strict time-keeping and patron play. I would encourage you to read Jeffro's blog or watch the channel This is Dundermoose on YouTube.
Ok, we have a miscommunication. What I'm saying is that this is fundamentally West Marches with some modifications. The real time thing does not change the underlying structure. This is a player-driven sandbox campaign. Functionally, what's gonna happen with the "real time" stuff is that you're going to roll some dice and promote/demote/eliminate factions and figures. That's what that looks like to the players.
Also, and I'm not trying to be rude here, but you wrote this article with the premise that you're not a nerd anymore, and that response is just about the most excruciating "RPG Guy As Identity I Know More Than You" tone I've had directed at me in a while. Pure nerditry.
Anyway, good luck with it. I do not feel this is the radical normie-grabber that you think it is, but time will tell.